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purpleronnie

Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

By purpleronnie, in Leicester City Forum

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Kitchandro

Kitchandro

Posted
Posted

Whether she's ugly / northern / a bitch doesn't concern me. The glaring holes in her argument do.

When she says there are 96 reasons why standing shouldn't return it certainly redirects the blame from the police to the fans. While it doesn't point towards their behaviour, it certainly suggests that the nature of football terracing was largely to blame for what happened. This is untrue and to use the deaths of people, even if some of them were related to you, in order to back up a misguided argument seems just a little immoral.

Firstly standing never went away. Until five years ago I regularly watched non-league and lower league football and had to stand pretty much every time. People have been doing it at concerts for many a year. What went away was standing for heavily policed football matches, that's all.

Secondly, the proposals bear very little similarity to the standing people were used to in 1989.

Finally there have been football disasters since Hillsborough. Some were due to crowd violence, some to police firing tear gas into the stands; some occurred in seated stadiums and others on the terraces. What they have in common is over-crowding. If a proposal makes that impossible, then arguments like hers become spectacularly irrelevant.

This is the key point. The thing is we all know this, you'd think the people who matter would have the same common sense, both back then and now.

If you put fences around an all-seater stadium and try to cram in several thousand more than there should be, it would still be dangerous.

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Voll Blau

Voll Blau

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Much as I would like to see it we'll never see safe standing in this country, it's a lost battle.

Only if everyone has the same attitude as you...

Not quite sure how you've worked that out either? Two or three years ago the campaign would've killed for the level of debate we've got now. People in the pub, the press and parliament are talking about it - and we have clubs actively supporting the idea. Some "lost battle" that is...

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Lobsterboyuk

Lobsterboyuk

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The last Labour government wasn't too keen on listening to fans views on safe standing, either.

First off I'm not politicking, they're all a shower IMO. I'd read on the FSF website that Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair and Kate Hoey had all been positive about safe standing which on the face of it does contradict that. If ou know different I'd be interested to hear that. The labour candidate in the recent police commissioner election had also been positive about safe standing.

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Mike the Metal Ed

Mike the Metal Ed

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First off I'm not politicking, they're all a shower IMO. I'd read on the FSF website that Alistair Campbell, Tony Blair and Kate Hoey had all been positive about safe standing which on the face of it does contradict that. If ou know different I'd be interested to hear that. The labour candidate in the recent police commissioner election had also been positive about safe standing.

I know, and to be honest, I found it hard to find much evidence, it was mostly a sticking point with Richard Caborn who was sports minister at the time.

Mr. Jim Cunningham: To ask the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport what assessment her Department has made of the merits of introducing small, limited sections of safe standing areas at football grounds; and if she will make a statement. [119580]

Mr. Caborn: My Department considers all new evidence about the safety of spectators in sports grounds including any relating to the all-seater requirement. No new evidence has been presented to suggest that there is a single more effective way of achieving safety as well as public order than all seater stadia. The Government therefore remains fully committed to the current policy.

- http://www.imusa.org...ticle.php?id=37
However those in or around government, such as ex-sports minister Richard Caborn, have tried to undermine our argument by blithely telling us that German clubs are moving away from safe standing - an argument that is shot to pieces after the latest news from Hamburg.
- http://www.fsf.org.u...es-german-boost

After the last election, I was hoping the anti-"nanny state" Tories would be more receptive to fans' calls for safe standing areas, especially in coalition with the Lib Dems, but Don Foster wasn't even made a minister in the Culture, Media and Sport office and Hugh Robertson has been even more repetitive and ignorant on the subject, sadly.

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Lobsterboyuk

Lobsterboyuk

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I know, and to be honest, I found it hard to find much evidence, it was mostly a sticking point with Richard Caborn who was sports minister at the time.

That's later than the quotes on the FSF website, bit of a blow. Here's hoping the latest round of lobbying by FSF improves the political support

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James.

James.

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I'm in favour of the Safe Standing campaign and have signed the FSF petition.

It is evident that the police and local authority were at fault for crowd management on the day but the firm suggestion remains in most people's minds that if Hillsborough had been an all seater stadium with ticket holders sitting in their allocated seats then the disaster probably wouldn't have happened.

Or if Hillsborough had been a safe standing stadium with ticket holders standing in their allocated spaces then the disaster probably wouldn't have happened.

It's amazing how emotion can overrule common sense to such a degree. The safe standing proposals really aren't rocket science, they're actualy the opposite, they're like those kids toys where you put the square in the square hole and the circle in the circular hole. Although it'll be a slow process I'm confident that logic and reason will eventually win out, lots of respect to those that are fighting the battle, keep it up.

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Guest foxestalkisfullofidiots

Guest foxestalkisfullofidiots

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I don't see why people can be so against safe standing because football supporters have changed i.e families, this is about choice, you want to sit then sit, you want to stand then stand, I think the modern day grounds need it.

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Manwell Pablo

Manwell Pablo

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Only if everyone has the same attitude as you...

Not quite sure how you've worked that out either? Two or three years ago the campaign would've killed for the level of debate we've got now. People in the pub, the press and parliament are talking about it - and we have clubs actively supporting the idea. Some "lost battle" that is...

lol it's been talked about in the pub press and parliament for fvcking years mate, it'll never happen, even Ze Germans are going to get shafted out of a decent match day experience fairly soon.

13 clubs support it, out of 92, not including our own, which basically tells you all you need to know.

Football is heading in one way, and it's been heading that way since the early 90's and I'm certain we'll never see safe standing at the king power. Don't get me wrong I support any movement to improve match day experiences, but sadly being realistic we can kick and scream all we want it's all about money now not about us.

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James.

James.

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Much as I would like to see it we'll never see safe standing in this country, it's a lost battle.

lol it's been talked about in the pub press and parliament for fvcking years mate, it'll never happen, even Ze Germans are going to get shafted out of a decent match day experience fairly soon.

13 clubs support it, out of 92, not including our own, which basically tells you all you need to know.

Football is heading in one way, and it's been heading that way since the early 90's and I'm certain we'll never see safe standing at the king power. Don't get me wrong I support any movement to improve match day experiences, but sadly being realistic we can kick and scream all we want it's all about money now not about us.

You seemed to have softened your stance slightly. Firstly not in this country, now just not at the King Power...

13 clubs support it but what was that number 2 years ago and what will it be in another 2 years? It's clearly on an upward trajectory. I understand your cynicism but I actually think there's a good chance this will happen in the next few years in at least one ground (probably not the King Power, fair enough). It's been demonstrated previously that clubs can make more money from safe standing areas, with only a relatively short time period required to cover the initial outlay.

As such I actually think the greatest hurdle isn't money but politics and history. There are too many myths and misunderstandings driven by emotion and not enough focus on the facts. Once people start to see the arguments in objective terms (which will happen at some point) you'll get the momentum required to push this through. There really are no good arguments against it.

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purpleronnie

purpleronnie

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lol it's been talked about in the pub press and parliament for fvcking years mate, it'll never happen, even Ze Germans are going to get shafted out of a decent match day experience fairly soon.

13 clubs support it, out of 92, not including our own, which basically tells you all you need to know.

Football is heading in one way, and it's been heading that way since the early 90's and I'm certain we'll never see safe standing at the king power. Don't get me wrong I support any movement to improve match day experiences, but sadly being realistic we can kick and scream all we want it's all about money now not about us.

That's not true, the safe standing roadshow hasnt been to all 92 clubs, and the 13 are the only ones who have come out publicly in support.

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Lobsterboyuk

Lobsterboyuk

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Can officially say now that susan whelan attended parliament for the safe standing roadshow.

Great news

Bloody hell, that's good news that is. That's what this is all about, getting facts in front of people who actually have a say about whether this can happen. We don't want to allow those with an axe to grind against standing have it all their way.

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Manwell Pablo

Manwell Pablo

Posted
Posted (edited)

You seemed to have softened your stance slightly. Firstly not in this country, now just not at the King Power...

13 clubs support it but what was that number 2 years ago and what will it be in another 2 years? It's clearly on an upward trajectory. I understand your cynicism but I actually think there's a good chance this will happen in the next few years in at least one ground (probably not the King Power, fair enough). It's been demonstrated previously that clubs can make more money from safe standing areas, with only a relatively short time period required to cover the initial outlay.

As such I actually think the greatest hurdle isn't money but politics and history. There are too many myths and misunderstandings driven by emotion and not enough focus on the facts. Once people start to see the arguments in objective terms (which will happen at some point) you'll get the momentum required to push this through. There really are no good arguments against it.

I Softened as I remember some league clubs do still have standing areas. I certainly do not see any being put in in grounds like the King Power in the top two divisions, certainly not while familys of Hillborough victims are around to violently and pointlessly oppose it anyway.

You say it's an upwards targectory, and this seems to be the view throughout this thread, is it though? I am yet to see anything concreate to suggest that this is anymore supported than it was two years ago, if anything over the last two years grounds with terracing are vanishing and being replaced with shiny new all seaters.

There are no good arguements against it you are quite right, it's common sense. This is football though, please see actions of FA, UEFA, and FIFA over the last 10 years to see the likely hood of a common sense solution that suits football fans.

And it is about money also although you are right in what you say in regards to the other reasons, standing areas are cheaper than seating areas, obviously, as you can't sit down. If your controllig the numbers of fans admitted as would be legal requirement, you'd lose money. Hostile atmospheres are also off putting to familys (in the eyes most clubs anyway) and that's who football is aimed at these days. It's been taken away from the working class and given to those who can pay more for tickets and merchandise.

My views anyway, i've got better things to do with my life than chase lost causes, fair play to those that are carrying on.

Edited by Manwell Pablo
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Ashley

Ashley

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That is brilliant news! It needed a top team to come out in support. Wouldn't surprise me if United did the same.

Absolutely no chance of Chelsea, Spurs and Arsenal doing the same, however.

Said in that article Man UTD are against it.

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