Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[Bilo]

Are you forgetting Hysel aswell how convenient. Both Hilsborough and Hysel disasters would never have happened if they had been all seater stadiums fact. By the way do you always end your child like rants with abuse ? be careful your wearing your inteligence on your sleeve.

Heysel and Hillsborough disasters wouldn't have happened on properly managed and maintained terraces. Fact.

Heysel and Hillsborough disasters wouldn't have happened in safe standing areas. Fact.

Both Heysel and Hillsborough suffered from endemic procedural failures on the part of the police, and Heysel in particular was an ageing athletics stadium that was quite literally falling apart. Had the final been played at the Camp Nou which also had standing areas in 1985 and was available, 56 people would still be alive. Had the SYP used the same tactics they had for the 1988 semi-final between the same teams at the same stadium, 96 people would have survived.

Quite why you think all-seaters are the only way to ensure safety is beyond me, I optimistically attribute your anti-standing mania to wilful ignorance.

Edited 11 April 2013 by Bilo

[indierich06]

Can you please look at the rail seating and explain to us exactly how anything like Hillsborough could possibly happen if this system was implemented, not just vague nonsense - I want to hear the mechanics of how crushing or stampeding would occur when each row of spectators is separated by a metal bar.

It's all gone a bit quiet, hasn't it?

[Bilo]

It's all gone a bit quiet, hasn't it?

Of course it will, he knows the square root of jackshit about it. I'm mystified as to why he keeps popping up to be honest.

[Manwell Pablo]

Of course it will, he knows the square root of jackshit about it. I'm mystified as to why he keeps popping up to be honest.

Probably just trolling you.

You lot do get very irate if anyone critises your doomed safe standing campaign so I can see why he's picked this thread to troll it up.

[Bilo]

Probably just trolling you.

You lot do get very irate if anyone critises your doomed safe standing campaign so I can see why he's picked this thread to troll it up.

I get pissy with ignorance anyway.

Hardly think it's doomed, it's gathering some smashing momentum. Looking forward to standing at a rail seat at the KP before too long.

[Manwell Pablo]

I get pissy with ignorance anyway.

Hardly think it's doomed, it's gathering some smashing momentum. Looking forward to standing at a rail seat at the KP before too long.

I'll believe when I see it.

Best of luck though.

[flowwolf]

it would help if you could actually spell intelligence correctly.

What is the point of discussing something with you when you clearly have no idea, i'm surprised you can even string a sentence together with your complete lack of common sense.

Ah well I made a spelling mistake , compare that to your juvenile rant . Still I'm glad you grew up and dropped the abuse, I may even listen to your point of view now.

[indierich06]

Ah well I made a spelling mistake , compare that to your juvenile rant . Still I'm glad you grew up and dropped the abuse, I may even listen to your point of view now.

Still no reply to my post then?

[flowwolf]

Heysel and Hillsborough disasters wouldn't have happened on properly managed and maintained terraces. Fact.

Heysel and Hillsborough disasters wouldn't have happened in safe standing areas. Fact.

Both Heysel and Hillsborough suffered from endemic procedural failures on the part of the police, and Heysel in particular was an ageing athletics stadium that was quite literally falling apart. Had the final been played at the Camp Nou which also had standing areas in 1985 and was available, 56 people would still be alive. Had the SYP used the same tactics they had for the 1988 semi-final between the same teams at the same stadium, 96 people would have survived.

Quite why you think all-seaters are the only way to ensure safety is beyond me, I optimistically attribute your anti-standing mania to wilful ignorance.

I suppose I will have to say it again. It is not what I think it's what the F.A the clubs and the health and safety say. And they are all still saying the only real safe option is all seater stadiums. From their point of view had Hysel and Hilsborough been all seater there would have been no deaths either. And to be honest Can you really see them changing their minds on that?

Still no reply to my post then?

See my last post it says it all.

Edited 11 April 2013 by flowwolf

[Bilo]

I suppose I will have to say it again. It is not what I think it's what the F.A the clubs and the health and safety say. And they are all still saying the only real safe option is all seater stadiums. From their point of view had Hysel and Hilsborough been all seater there would have been no deaths either. And to be honest Can you really see them changing their minds on that?

Without pressure, they won't change their minds.

The pressure is growing now though, from clubs as well as supporter campaign groups.

I suppose I will have to say my piece again as well, the Taylor Report clearly states that STANDING IS NOT INTRINSICALLY UNSAFE. Look it up. The Taylor Report recommended all-seaters only on the proviso that fans would eventually get used to and eventually prefer all-seater stadia.

All seater stadia are only safer if every single fan sits down and that isn't happening. The likelihood is it never will, as thousands of fans stand in front of their seats every game. What greater visual representation of the rejection of all-seaters by fans can you think of? This is actually highly unsafe and renders all-seaters useless, even more dangerous than the old terrace model. The number of injuries caused by fans knocked over seats is pretty dreadful. Tackle it would be the answer but how? Police can do nothing because standing isn't a criminal offence, only a breach of ground regulations. Best of luck to the stewards trying to get 3,000 Leicester fans to sit down at Palace!

With 90% of fans now in favour of the choice to sit or stand, the 'fans preferring all-seaters' aspect clearly hasn't happened. Clubs up and down the country are looking enviously at attendances in the Bundesliga, a supposedly inferior division in terms of quality, and are thinking of the lessons that can be learned. Clearly safe standing has had an impact there. You can give your dated 1980s vintage schtick about how fans in England are thicker/more violent than their German counterparts, but this isn't grounded in reality. German fans can be just as 'naughty,' but guess what? Police intelligence, as in England, stops problems in the ground and confines them largely to far away fields. Hooliganism within the grounds is largely done. This in a country where matches between certain clubs such as Hansa Rostock and St. Pauli can represent war zones in the towns.

The fact is that support for this is growing and growing quickly. Clubs are looking at their falling attendances in these days of recession, particularly outside the Premiership, and are thinking how they can address it without losing fortunes. The simple answer to ticket sales is 'pile em high and sell em cheap.' With 1.8 fans able to fit into a safe standing area to every 1 in an all-seated area, the benefits are obvious. A club can retrofit rail seats to a previously seated area and charge £20 a ticket instead of £36, and the standing-seating ratio would ensure they wouldn't lose money.

Look at Leeds, how many binned that fixture off last lesson because of the pricing? Reduce it to £20 with guaranteed standing and they'd probably sold double or more what they actually managed to shift. Thus they would actually make more money in spite of significantly cheaper ticket prices. It's not a difficult question, and the clubs are cottoning on to it fast.

[indierich06]

I suppose I will have to say it again. It is not what I think it's what the F.A the clubs and the health and safety say. And they are all still saying the only real safe option is all seater stadiums. From their point of view had Hysel and Hilsborough been all seater there would have been no deaths either. And to be honest Can you really see them changing their minds on that?

Nice dodge. Are you finally agreeing that rail seating makes any kind of Hillsborough repeat impossible?

Personally, I can see them changing their minds - especially considering that the system has been such a huge success in Germany, but it'll be a very long process. I hoenstly worry about the current standing situation - there are far more likely to be deaths from people falling over seats, or cramming into tiny, crumbling, outdated terraces than there is is rail seating was introduced.

[Corky]

Yeah but Bilo, people who stand up might make a disturbance and we should SHUT THE GROUNDS!!

[Kitchandro]

Are you forgetting Hysel aswell how convenient. Both Hilsborough and Hysel disasters would never have happened if they had been all seater stadiums fact. By the way do you always end your child like rants with abuse ? be careful your wearing your inteligence on your sleeve.

Total bollocks.

You don't know anything. Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

Heysel was caused by a wall collapsing onto fans when Liverpool fans tried to get at them. Walls collapsing can't be attributed to standing, because it's a fvcking wall, you daft tosser. Neither was the stand they were in a safe standing model, making your argument irrelevent anyway.

Hillsborough was caused by overcrowding and fans being crushed against metal fences. This would be impossible at a stadium like London Road as it currently is - which has standing, but no fences. And yet it would be completely possible at the KP if we put fences up and tried to cram 100,000 people in there. So again, not caused by standing, but fences and bad organisation. Neither was the stand they were in a safe standing model, making your argument irrelevent anyway.

You might as well bring the Valley Parade fire up. In fact you might as well bring up any incident where anyone has ever died, they're all equally irrelevant to the standing issue, especially the kind of standing we're talking about.

[Kitchandro]

Are you saying that what happened at Hilsborough was an over reaction? And we are not Belgium are we? Our fans are unique in their stupidity so you can't compare us to anyone else.

Going by you yes they are.

Going by the backwards, bigoted and violent nature of a lot of European fan groups then you're talking utter crap, again.

[C-man]

Kitchandro and Bilo nailing it as per.

The revenue thing is such an easy win for clubs though. Even with the roughest of calculations - see below - it's clear that clubs can both lower prices for some fans and derive more revenue - win-win!

Some assumptions for the calculation below:

1) The Kop has 8,000 seats. Rip out the lower 4,000 of these and replace with space for 6,000 fans. This figure could in fact be higher but I wanted to account for some of the lost seats in the middle to ensure those sitting above can see.

2) Let's take an average price for the Kop of £25 - no idea what it is in practice but it seems a sensible number to take. Let's say standing places were £20 - personally think it's too high but I'm thinking with a LCFC hat on here. The club could even spin this a good way - PR the hell out of the cheaper standing places and up the seats slightly to compensate.

3) I have no idea what the actual capacity utilisation of the Kop is at the moment but I'd estimate 70%. Those not in the Kop could probably get a little closer with an estimate. It's inconceivable that 6,000 standing places wouldn't be filled if there are cheaper prices on offer. In addition, the remaining 4,000 seats in the Kop would probably see a boost in utilisation with more people moving there for the atmosphere.

Yes there are the fixed costs of implementation - actual rail seats, more toilets, food stalls, structural reinforcement required etc - and the variable overheads including more stewards, but over time these will be more than recouped.

Obviously a lot of these people will be season ticket holders but the general principles remain the same.

[flowwolf]

Without pressure, they won't change their minds.

The pressure is growing now though, from clubs as well as supporter campaign groups.

I suppose I will have to say my piece again as well, the Taylor Report clearly states that STANDING IS NOT INTRINSICALLY UNSAFE. Look it up. The Taylor Report recommended all-seaters only on the proviso that fans would eventually get used to and eventually prefer all-seater stadia.

All seater stadia are only safer if every single fan sits down and that isn't happening. The likelihood is it never will, as thousands of fans stand in front of their seats every game. What greater visual representation of the rejection of all-seaters by fans can you think of? This is actually highly unsafe and renders all-seaters useless, even more dangerous than the old terrace model. The number of injuries caused by fans knocked over seats is pretty dreadful. Tackle it would be the answer but how? Police can do nothing because standing isn't a criminal offence, only a breach of ground regulations. Best of luck to the stewards trying to get 3,000 Leicester fans to sit down at Palace!

With 90% of fans now in favour of the choice to sit or stand, the 'fans preferring all-seaters' aspect clearly hasn't happened. Clubs up and down the country are looking enviously at attendances in the Bundesliga, a supposedly inferior division in terms of quality, and are thinking of the lessons that can be learned. Clearly safe standing has had an impact there. You can give your dated 1980s vintage schtick about how fans in England are thicker/more violent than their German counterparts, but this isn't grounded in reality. German fans can be just as 'naughty,' but guess what? Police intelligence, as in England, stops problems in the ground and confines them largely to far away fields. Hooliganism within the grounds is largely done. This in a country where matches between certain clubs such as Hansa Rostock and St. Pauli can represent war zones in the towns.

The fact is that support for this is growing and growing quickly. Clubs are looking at their falling attendances in these days of recession, particularly outside the Premiership, and are thinking how they can address it without losing fortunes. The simple answer to ticket sales is 'pile em high and sell em cheap.' With 1.8 fans able to fit into a safe standing area to every 1 in an all-seated area, the benefits are obvious. A club can retrofit rail seats to a previously seated area and charge £20 a ticket instead of £36, and the standing-seating ratio would ensure they wouldn't lose money.

Look at Leeds, how many binned that fixture off last lesson because of the pricing? Reduce it to £20 with guaranteed standing and they'd probably sold double or more what they actually managed to shift. Thus they would actually make more money in spite of significantly cheaper ticket prices. It's not a difficult question, and the clubs are cottoning on to it fast.

So what do you make of the word intrinsically ? I will tell you it means issential. A right throw away word if you like . It left the door open and that was why it was used. Clubs are looking at their fall away attendances and it's nothing to do with standing. They have already lost the fans of old with their attitude towards " family " support, their ridiculous ticket prices and their absolute surrender to Sky'

If you think that standing is going to bring back the atmosphere and return football to the working man then you are wrong . The bubble has burst and people are at last seeing it for what it is an over hyped financially out of reach sport that milks you for every penny and takes the piss big time.

It will take more than a few token standing areas to repair the damage that has been done and the sooner you wake up to that the sooner we can get football back into the hands of those that care.

Nice dodge. Are you finally agreeing that rail seating makes any kind of Hillsborough repeat impossible?

Personally, I can see them changing their minds - especially considering that the system has been such a huge success in Germany, but it'll be a very long process. I hoenstly worry about the current standing situation - there are far more likely to be deaths from people falling over seats, or cramming into tiny, crumbling, outdated terraces than there is is rail seating was introduced.

Again see my last post.

[Bilo]

Still awaiting specific counter arguments rather than generic unquantified statements.......

Also, I do know what intrinsically means. Not so sure about issential though.

[DANGEROUS TIGER]

I suppose I will have to say it again. It is not what I think it's what the F.A the clubs and the health and safety say. And they are all still saying the only real safe option is all seater stadiums. From their point of view had Hysel and Hilsborough been all seater there would have been no deaths either. And to be honest Can you really see them changing their minds on that?

See my last post it says it all.

Good post, and spot on.

[flowwolf]

Total bollocks.

You don't know anything. Stop talking about things you know nothing about.

Heysel was caused by a wall collapsing onto fans when Liverpool fans tried to get at them. Walls collapsing can't be attributed to standing, because it's a fvcking wall, you daft tosser. Neither was the stand they were in a safe standing model, making your argument irrelevent anyway.

Hillsborough was caused by overcrowding and fans being crushed against metal fences. This would be impossible at a stadium like London Road as it currently is - which has standing, but no fences. And yet it would be completely possible at the KP if we put fences up and tried to cram 100,000 people in there. So again, not caused by standing, but fences and bad organisation. Neither was the stand they were in a safe standing model, making your argument irrelevent anyway.

You might as well bring the Valley Parade fire up. In fact you might as well bring up any incident where anyone has ever died, they're all equally irrelevant to the standing issue, especially the kind of standing we're talking about.

How old are you ? have you seen the footage you absolute idiot. They had to get too the wall for it to collapse and the only way that could happen is if they could be mobile enough to get at the opposing fans enmass. Your stupidity is evident to all.

Right then ask yourself this why do the so called new standing barriers have the capacity to drop down as seats ? I will tell you why it is so the they can be dropped down at any given point and used as barriers to stop people running allong the whole length of the stand and meeting up in the aisles. All they have to do is make the last eight seats drop down and the whole row now has to slow down and and circumnavigate them which makes impulse charging horizontally impossible at speed.

Come on then you enlightened ones YOU tell me why the standing sections in this brave new world have the capacity to have the seats unbolted and and laid flat.

[flowwolf]

Nice dodge. Are you finally agreeing that rail seating makes any kind of Hillsborough repeat impossible?

Personally, I can see them changing their minds - especially considering that the system has been such a huge success in Germany, but it'll be a very long process. I hoenstly worry about the current standing situation - there are far more likely to be deaths from people falling over seats, or cramming into tiny, crumbling, outdated terraces than there is is rail seating was introduced.

No dodge you explain if it's all standing why is it called " railed seating . see my last post.

[flowwolf]

Still awaiting specific counter arguments rather than generic unquantified statements.......

Also, I do know what intrinsically means. Not so sure about issential though.

Buy yourself a dictionary it would help.

[purpleronnie]

I understand what your saying flow concerning the powers that be changing their minds, thats a huge hurdle, why rock the boat? We have the richest and most popular league in the world so it would take guts for them to change when they dont have to.

Bottom like is though its only the top 2 divisions that have to have all seater, they are happy for other clubs to have terraces so its not that much of a step to small safe standing areas for the top 2 divisions.

The success in switzerland, austria, sweden & germany and others show it is safe and the fact scotland is open to the safe standing model could also apply pressure. Add to that many clubs publically coming out and saying they are in favour can only be a good thing and its up to the fans to keep the pressure on, nothing will change if nobody tries.

[Mike the Metal Ed]

Right then ask yourself this why do the so called new standing barriers have the capacity to drop down as seats ? I will tell you why it is so the they can be dropped down at any given point and used as barriers to stop people running allong the whole length of the stand and meeting up in the aisles. All they have to do is make the last eight seats drop down and the whole row now has to slow down and and circumnavigate them which makes impulse charging horizontally impossible at speed.

Come on then you enlightened ones YOU tell me why the standing sections in this brave new world have the capacity to have the seats unbolted and and laid flat.

Because UEFA competitions and international games require all-seated stadia. Next.

[C-man]

How old are you ? have you seen the footage you absolute idiot. They had to get too the wall for it to collapse and the only way that could happen is if they could be mobile enough to get at the opposing fans enmass. Your stupidity is evident to all.

Right then ask yourself this why do the so called new standing barriers have the capacity to drop down as seats ? I will tell you why it is so the they can be dropped down at any given point and used as barriers to stop people running allong the whole length of the stand and meeting up in the aisles. All they have to do is make the last eight seats drop down and the whole row now has to slow down and and circumnavigate them which makes impulse charging horizontally impossible at speed.

Come on then you enlightened ones YOU tell me why the standing sections in this brave new world have the capacity to have the seats unbolted and and laid flat.

Perhaps your most embarrassing post yet.

1) If you seriously think seats could stop the hooligans charging at the Juve fans that day then you are incredibly naive. Just would have given them a few more weapons to charge with.

2) It has been said a million times that the only reason they have drop down seats is because under current UEFA rules, all international matches (European or national teams) must take place in all seater stadiums. As we are nowhere near Europe, it is unlikely that we'll ever see the seats dropped. As a fan, you will have no option to drop the seat down, because it is locked safely into place. Comprende?

Edited 11 April 2013 by C-man

[davieG]

No dodge you explain if it's all standing why is it called " railed seating . see my last post.

I believe it's called railed seating so that they have two options, seating and standing . When allocated as standing the sest is locked in the up position.