Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[C-man]

I really cba to read through 18 pages so I wonder if someone could answer me this. How would safe standing work in terms of some people wanting to stand and some wanting to sit. Would standing zones just be in parts of the ground? Could imagine some pretty fierce arguments erupting if people had their view blocked by standers.

 

It's really simple.

 

The rail seats will only be introduced in a certain section of the ground. Let's say, SK1 and SK2. That leaves the other 26,000 seats available for those who wish to sit.

[Kitchandro]

We should rename this the 'Safe-Standing Vent Your Anger Thread'. It's page after page of us arguing with people who aren't reading it ah we are a silly bunch

 

For some time now I've avoided reading most things on safe-standing, any opposing viewpoints will just piss me off and I can't be arsed with it. You might say I can't stand it. They haven't got a terrace to stand on as they say. I wish they would just stand down. etc.

[Larry_LCFC]

That makes sense I suppose. Would the whole ground be replaced with those weird standing seats or again just part of it? Suppose it would look daft if only a certain area had them

[Kitchandro]

That makes sense I suppose. Would the whole ground be replaced with those weird standing seats or again just part of it? Suppose it would look daft if only a certain area had them

 

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't replace all of the seats. I don't think anyone would be bothered if some seats looked a bit different to others.

 

Besides I think grounds used to look well cool when part of them was terracing. I'd love to have our whole Kop standing one day.

[C-man]

That makes sense I suppose. Would the whole ground be replaced with those weird standing seats or again just part of it? Suppose it would look daft if only a certain area had them

 

You'd only do it for the section(s) that you wanted people standing in. The attached seats aren't as comfortable (they're metal) as those we have now but in pracice they would never be used, even if we got in Europe everyone would stand in those sectors.

 

I don't think it looks daft, since when has a football ground had to be symmetrical?

[C-man]

Well done Joan Hope - one of the mother's who lost a son at Hillsborough. And the first, to my knowledge, to speak sense on the matter. This must have took guts and is surely an important step in the campaign.

 

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/flintshire-mum-whose-son-died-6455508

[RowlattsFox]

What would happen if the standing area was not big enough to hold the people who wanted to stand? I assume everyone will be happy to sit in other areas if they cannot get a ticket in standing area.

[KFS]

What would happen if the standing area was not big enough to hold the people who wanted to stand? I assume everyone will be happy to sit in other areas if they cannot get a ticket in standing area.

Yeah it'd be relative to demand. They'd increase capacity as and when required.

[Lobsterboyuk]

Well done Joan Hope - one of the mother's who lost a son at Hillsborough. And the first, to my knowledge, to speak sense on the matter. This must have took guts and is surely an important step in the campaign.

 

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/flintshire-mum-whose-son-died-6455508

Hear, hear. Expressing a balanced, considered point of view that goes completely against the grain of her peers in this understandable cauldron of emotion is brave.

[catfordfox]

You'll never win with Liverpool fans, these are the same lot who caused the herysel stadium disaster which resulted in pens at football grounds and also used to indulge in the artful pastime of storming turn styles so they could get in for free, and we all know how that ended up. There used to be loads of videos on the net proving this, but they've all mysteriously disappeared.

 

That's complete bollocks - pereimeter fences and pens were introduced in grounds in the late 70s, the Juve fans died because Heysel was a decrepit stadium falling to bits (charges from one end to the other were not unique to Liverpool fans back in 70s/80s, never normally ended in death (not defending it, just pointing out that Heysel happened because a wall in a elderly stadium collapsed, not solely because of the charge itself).

 

Hillsborough had NOTHING to do with fans 'storming the turnstiles', that's a complete lie. You can see the footage of the fans walking in when the exit gate was opened online. Hillsborough had nothing to do with standing per se either - it was lack of flitering of the crowd by police in the entrance to ridiculously small Leppings Lane concourse where the turnstiles were, way too few turnstiles at that end (i think around 12 for 24000 fans!), complete lack of monitoring of how many fans were in each pen, no signposting in the stadium to the entrances to the side turnstiles so all fans saw was one big sign saying STANDING leading to pens 3 and 4, no police or stewards directing fans to the side the turnstiles when the exit gate was open - even though the police admitted they could clearly see pens 3 and 4 were full before the gate was opened -, nowhere near enough exit gates in the fences,  and then the police failing to react and open the gates that were there in the perimeter fence when fans were shouting out they were getting crushed and people were dying.

 

It was a police fck up from start to finish - which is why they went to such lengths to cover it up. It should have no impact on arguments about standing, which i'd imagine/hope most fans (including Liverpool fans) would know. And it had nothing to do with Liverpool fans being drunk, or conspiring to get in, or any of that crap. Read the Hillsborough Panel Report, its all there.

[Harry - LCFC]

Slightly off topic but just a few words about how standers and sitters coexist.

 

At the game today I walked up to the second to last row and stood up when the game kicked off, just as I intended to do for the rest of the match. About a minute in someone tapped me on the back asking me to sit down. I pointed out that there were several empty seats lower down but it seemed to upset him, saying "no you carry on mate" as if I was being unreasonable. Not wanting to create a conflict I moved to another group of standers elsewhere.

 

I don't want to sound like I'm moaning here but if you prefer to sit could I politely suggest that you take a seat on a lower row, that way both preferences can be accommodated. Of course the same applies to standers, try and get as far up as you can to avoid blocking the views of those who wish to sit down.

 

Make life easier for yourself and others. Thanks.

[AndWhat?]

Slightly off topic but just a few words about how standers and sitters coexist.

At the game today I walked up to the second to last row and stood up when the game kicked off, just as I intended to do for the rest of the match. About a minute in someone tapped me on the back asking me to sit down. I pointed out that there were several empty seats lower down but it seemed to upset him, saying "no you carry on mate" as if I was being unreasonable. Not wanting to create a conflict I moved to another group of standers elsewhere.

I don't want to sound like I'm moaning here but if you prefer to sit could I politely suggest that you take a seat on a lower row, that way both preferences can be accommodated. Of course the same applies to standers, try and get as far up as you can to avoid blocking the views of those who wish to sit down.

Make life easier for yourself and others. Thanks.

Seriously can't stand people that do that.

But as standers, we are in the wrong and we can't say they are selfish for wanting to make people sit down.

[Harry - LCFC]

Seriously can't stand people that do that.

But as standers, we are in the wrong and we can't say they are selfish for wanting to make people sit down.

 

I have to say I did find it a bit frustrating. I fully respect those who wish to sit but I feel my preference should be given equal respect from others. A small amount of consideration when choosing your seat allows everyone to watch the game how they want to.

Edited 1 January 2014 by Harry - LCFC

[Poakey]

Slightly off topic but just a few words about how standers and sitters coexist.

At the game today I walked up to the second to last row and stood up when the game kicked off, just as I intended to do for the rest of the match. About a minute in someone tapped me on the back asking me to sit down. I pointed out that there were several empty seats lower down but it seemed to upset him, saying "no you carry on mate" as if I was being unreasonable. Not wanting to create a conflict I moved to another group of standers elsewhere.

I don't want to sound like I'm moaning here but if you prefer to sit could I politely suggest that you take a seat on a lower row, that way both preferences can be accommodated. Of course the same applies to standers, try and get as far up as you can to avoid blocking the views of those who wish to sit down.

Make life easier for yourself and others. Thanks.

Ha ha,don't you just love that tap on the shoulder.The one where you know what's coming next.

[Dan LCFC]

Well done Joan Hope - one of the mother's who lost a son at Hillsborough. And the first, to my knowledge, to speak sense on the matter. This must have took guts and is surely an important step in the campaign.

 

http://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/local-news/flintshire-mum-whose-son-died-6455508

 

Nothing but respect for her. Well done, Joan.

[C-man]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2532712/JEFF-POWELL-ON-FRIDAY-Safe-standing-highly-dangerous-trick.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Con-trick. lol

[AndWhat?]

That article didn't even make me angry, I just had to laugh.

I seriously don't understand how anybody who has done even the smallest bit of research into safe standing can be against it.

Mind boggling.

[danlcfc4ever]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2532712/JEFF-POWELL-ON-FRIDAY-Safe-standing-highly-dangerous-trick.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Con-trick. lol

 

Clearly hasn't done any research or put any positive thought into it.

 

The line that makes no sense is:

 

"But how is that different, pray, since they then lean on metal rails… just like we used to risk doing?"

 

I'll point out how it is different... the new safe standing seats see ONE person leaning on ONE METAL RAIL. The maximum force that could possibly be applied to that metal rail is that of only one person.

 

With old fashioned terracing there was a SHARED metal rail once every 5 or 6 rows.. meaning that the rail in a surge could have been subject to the force of an estimated 50+ people.

 

That's how it is different, you silly old cvnt. 

[C-man]

Clearly hasn't done any research or put any positive thought into it.

 

The line that makes no sense is:

 

"But how is that different, pray, since they then lean on metal rails… just like we used to risk doing?"

 

I'll point out how it is different... the new safe standing seats see ONE person leaning on ONE METAL RAIL. The maximum force that could possibly be applied to that metal rail is that of only one person.

 

With old fashioned terracing there was a SHARED metal rail once every 5 or 6 rows.. meaning that the rail in a surge could have been subject to the force of an estimated 50+ people.

 

That's how it is different, you silly old cvnt. 

 

Not strictly true... Guidance in Germany states that up to 1.8 people can stand safely in each space where a seat was. So the maximum force that could possibly be applied is that of 1.8 people

 

For reference I believe that the Bundesliga set its own limit of 1.6 people. I expect we would do 1.5 to start with. i.e. 3 people for every 2 seats.

[danlcfc4ever]

Not strictly true... Guidance in Germany states that up to 1.8 people can stand safely in each space where a seat was. So the maximum force that could possibly be applied is that of 1.8 people

 

For reference I believe that the Bundesliga set its own limit of 1.6 people. I expect we would do 1.5 to start with. i.e. 3 people for every 2 seats.

 

Fair play, you know the figures better than me!

 

I would be surprised if we went with anything more than 1 person to 1 seat but anything would be a start!

[AndWhat?]

For the control aspect of it I think if we do get safe standing it will be 1 per person and we will still get a designated seat number to stand in.

Where as in Germany you get a designated block in the terrace and your tickets are checked before you enter, and every time you bloody leave to get a beer and come back!

[davieG]

Not strictly true... Guidance in Germany states that up to 1.8 people can stand safely in each space where a seat was. So the maximum force that could possibly be applied is that of 1.8 people

 

For reference I believe that the Bundesliga set its own limit of 1.6 people. I expect we would do 1.5 to start with. i.e. 3 people for every 2 seats.

 

I suspect it'll be one person and isn't there a problem with evacuation procedures/numbers?

For the control aspect of it I think if we do get safe standing it will be 1 per person and we will still get a designated seat number to stand in.

Where as in Germany you get a designated block in the terrace and your tickets are checked before you enter, and every time you bloody leave to get a beer and come back!

That's how i see it and will give them the justification of charging the same whether you sit or stand.

[AndWhat?]

I suspect it'll be one person and isn't there a problem with evacuation procedures/numbers?

That's how i see it and will give them the justification of charging the same whether you sit or stand.

Yeah I am not expecting this huge reduction in ticket prices when it happens, but I would happily pay more for a standing place than a sitting place.

I would get out of football what I wanted then.

[C-man]

I suspect it'll be one person and isn't there a problem with evacuation procedures/numbers?

That's how i see it and will give them the justification of charging the same whether you sit or stand.

 

You mean widening vomitories? You may be right but the likelihood is that the stand itself will need redeveloping anyway to allow for rail height etc so there are always going to be start-up costs involved. Once that's done, why would they settle for 2 people at £25 each when they can get 3 people at £20 each?

[AndWhat?]

You mean widening vomitories? You may be right but the likelihood is that the stand itself will need redeveloping anyway to allow for rail height etc so there are always going to be start-up costs involved. Once that's done, why would they settle for 2 people at £25 each when they can get 3 people at £20 each?

Why settle for 3 at £20 when they can get 3 at £25.