Safe Standing - Support the Early Day motion

[Dan LCFC]

it amazes me the determination some have to fabricate arguments against it. I literally cannot envisage your thought pattern.

[ScouseFox]

No wait hold on you're still not understanding. Nobody on here has these arguments against it. Well I don't anyway. I was simply saying look how easy it would be for someone in power who is dead against it to point at a picture of a Celtic fan in this trial area holding a flare, not even offer an explanation and just say no never again.

Obviously anyone with half a brain knows that the two things aren't related, but people in power are actively trying to find problems, and Celtic having a good atmosphere and "boisterous" (is that a word?) fans will be used against an area like this being implement everywhere. To those in charge a good football crowd is one that will pay £60, take a young child paying £35, buy said child a scarf, a shirt and a meal for two totalling £100 and then sit silently taking pictures on their iPads. This will not be happening in Celtic's standing section, therefore someone in a suit will try and use it against safe standing, like they've been trying to use everything they can against it for nearly 30 years.

[Dan LCFC]

I know exactly what you're getting at Scouse. I don't mean you at all. I'm kind of adding to what you're saying.

[wire73]

First time post so go easy. Firstly I'm neither for or against at the mo, very much sat on the fence (or stood possibly) I'm old enough to remember Hillsborough although it was 5 months before my Leicester debut (the 4-3 against Leeds, how could you not be a lifelong city fan after that) so I never really understood what went wrong and why. What I do remember are my own personal experiences of being crushed and hurt. First was Notts county away, 91 I think when we won 2-0, lots of drunken guys surging on an open terrace. There were women and children being hurt and a very unpleasant experience. Blackburn away when Rooster scored a late winner and being forced through the gates at the bottom with the police pushing us back in against the downward surge. And worst of the lot was being caught against a barrier, in pen 3, when Richard Smith scored a late winner against Palace in the cup. I honestly thought I was in big trouble, crushed my hip and couldn't breathe. I never stood behind a barrier again after that!! For those negative experiences there were plenty of positives, better atmosphere, better singing, more fun, and you stayed toasty warm even when it was Baltic! I think the key word here is 'safe' standing and what does that look like? I went on an ashes tour in 06/07 and at Melbourne they had small standing areas at the back of the seating blocks, you could only get about 50 or 60 in but they seemed to work well. Stewarding and policing is far better than the 80s & 90s and fans are not treated like animals like we were back then. This will polarise opinion and I can fully sympathise with both points of view. if it happens it needs to be done properly and it sounds like plenty of thought has gone and is going in to it. They should take a look at the MCG model.

[Voll Blau]

First time post so go easy. Firstly I'm neither for or against at the mo, very much sat on the fence (or stood possibly) I'm old enough to remember Hillsborough although it was 5 months before my Leicester debut (the 4-3 against Leeds, how could you not be a lifelong city fan after that) so I never really understood what went wrong and why. What I do remember are my own personal experiences of being crushed and hurt. First was Notts county away, 91 I think when we won 2-0, lots of drunken guys surging on an open terrace. There were women and children being hurt and a very unpleasant experience. Blackburn away when Rooster scored a late winner and being forced through the gates at the bottom with the police pushing us back in against the downward surge. And worst of the lot was being caught against a barrier, in pen 3, when Richard Smith scored a late winner against Palace in the cup. I honestly thought I was in big trouble, crushed my hip and couldn't breathe. I never stood behind a barrier again after that!! For those negative experiences there were plenty of positives, better atmosphere, better singing, more fun, and you stayed toasty warm even when it was Baltic! I think the key word here is 'safe' standing and what does that look like? I went on an ashes tour in 06/07 and at Melbourne they had small standing areas at the back of the seating blocks, you could only get about 50 or 60 in but they seemed to work well. Stewarding and policing is far better than the 80s & 90s and fans are not treated like animals like we were back then. This will polarise opinion and I can fully sympathise with both points of view. if it happens it needs to be done properly and it sounds like plenty of thought has gone and is going in to it. They should take a look at the MCG model.

 

This is barriers in front of every couple of rows, so at max you can get two rows deep before the next barrier. It's miles safer than standing in seated areas, which at present goes on en masse across the country without incident every week.

[C-man]

I actually find it quite insulting and patronising that various political parties and people like Margaret Aspinall still continue to cover their ears and pretend they're not listening when presented with clear empirical evidence that rail seating is the safest way to accommodate football fans who wish to stand. Evidence that people who dedicate their life to this and crowd safety have gathered.

The only reason I see for the government (other than the Tories not giving a fvck about sport) not to have taken up and backed this campaign is because of the 'pressure' which would come from the various Hillsborough support groups. It baffles me that 26 years on, policy-makers are still listening to people commenting on something that is so irrelevant to their own cause.

Aspinall et al's continued negligent attitude to the facts and insistence that standing in a specifically designed, safe area will lead to serious injuries is absolutely insane. Why aren't they campaigning that people sit at gigs after the Duisburg festival disaster? Hillsborough was tragic, of course, but it is in absolutely no way even half relevant to safe standing in 2015.

And that fvcks me off.

[Dan LCFC]

For whatever reason as a nation we always cave in to the moral highground. See this Rooney Rule garbage for a perfect example. Absolutely spineless. Everyone knows she's talking shit yet she's got more of a say than those with common sense. Surely now someone's told her what it's actually about?

 

Why can they not just be honest and say their real reasons for not wanting it? I find the irony in Aspinall's argument all the more depressing. Correct me if I'm wrong but have they not been campaigning to prove it was down to something that was NOT standing? Why would they so viciously oppose this?

 

All of Liverpool's away support stands at every game as well.

Edited 11 June 2015 by Dan LCFC

[tylesta]

Haha the old 'overfilling' argument.

Make the area season ticket holder only to begin with. With the electronic cards nearly every club now has it's not difficult to control numbers in a certain section.

l1 is season ticket holder only I know a fair few that go there and are sat in the kop!

[yorkie1999]

For whatever reason as a nation we always cave in to the moral highground. See this Rooney Rule garbage for a perfect example. Absolutely spineless. Everyone knows she's talking shit yet she's got more of a say than those with common sense. Surely now someone's told her what it's actually about?

 

Why can they not just be honest and say their real reasons for not wanting it? I find the irony in Aspinall's argument all the more depressing. Correct me if I'm wrong but have they not been campaigning to prove it was down to something that was NOT standing? Why would they so viciously oppose this?

 

All of Liverpool's away support stands at every game as well.

They stand at home as well.

[C-man]

l1 is season ticket holder only I know a fair few that go there and are sat in the kop!

Well stewarding needs to improve then. Hardly an excuse.

[Voll Blau]

How stewards have never cottoned on to the old trick for jibbing into L1 I'll never know.

 

But yeah, hardly an excuse.

[C-man]

Anyway, in a section of 2,600 rail seats it would probably need a good 3,000 extra people to jib in to take it to unsafe levels.

People still don't seem to get that there's a bar on every row. It's almost a physical impossibility to be crushed.

[Footballwipe]

It is stunning that people who don't understand the standing culture get to make the decisions.

 

I'm sure a few of you here were involved in the pile-up that took place at the final whistle v Sunderland, and I'm sure there were a fair few of the same at WBA, Burnley et al.

 

Those are eliminated with safe standing and bars every row/two rows. How is that not safer than falling several rows into people in front of you because seats are there and not bars. Ridiculous, baffling and not considerate of a football fans' safety either.

 

People who don't get it (including the Hillsborough Group) need to modernise, rapidly. I'd also argue that there's likely to be less overcrowding at the back of stands because everyone who wants to stand is in an area where they can.

 

The sheer ignorance is frightening and someone needs guts to turn around to the group and state their views are tremendously out of date in 2015. You'd have some credence to the argument if every Liverpool fan sat on their arse home and away for every game in solidarity.

[davieG]

I think the fundamental error is in calling Safe Standing obviously it's a simple catchy phrase to use but is clearly misleading or at best provides an incomplete picture of what it is.

 

It could easily have been introduced as Safer Seating (with the flexibility to allow for standing) because when the seats are available it's safer than the current seating set up.

 

In fact if it wasn't for the cost involved it could be installed now but with the intention of the club for the seat to be used and for the fans to then completely ignore the seat as they do now and stand.

[AndWhat?]

I think the fundamental error is in calling Safe Standing obviously it's a simple catchy phrase to use but is clearly misleading or at best provides an incomplete picture of what it is.

 

It could easily have been introduced as Safer Seating (with the flexibility to allow for standing) because when the seats are available it's safer than the current seating set up.

 

In fact if it wasn't for the cost involved it could be installed now but with the intention of the club for the seat to be used and for the fans to then completely ignore the seat as they do now and stand.

 

I think a few people have cottoned on to that and started calling it rail seats. Which seems like a better idea to me.

 

Just goes to show what kind of people we are up against if just the word 'standing' is used they automatically imagine it to be dangerous without doing any research about it.

[Freesolo]

I think a few people have cottoned on to that and started calling it rail seats. Which seems like a better idea to me.

 

Just goes to show what kind of people we are up against if just the word 'standing' is used they automatically imagine it to be dangerous without doing any research about it.

 

Yea think thats a good idea, most people don't understand what Safe Standing actually is and probably just picture the old day's with terraces a few extra barriers and no fence

[AndWhat?]

Well those people need to do about 3 minutes of research to find out what it really is before passing comment. 

Edited 11 June 2015 by AndWhat?

[Stadt]

It's as simple as this:

 

[Carl the Llama]

What's the maintenance cost of those metal barriers though?  Bet it's pretty steep.

[yorkie1999]

What's the maintenance cost of those metal barriers though?  Bet it's pretty steep.

There's nothing to maintain. Although as the picture shows, there are a few fag buts to clean up.

Edited 11 June 2015 by yorkie1999

[C-man]

What's the maintenance cost of those metal barriers though? Bet it's pretty steep.

There's a video online of someone at Hanover 96 who says in ten years they have never replaced a single seat or bar. Compare that to Man Utd who have to replace 700 seats every game!

[AndWhat?]

Every single argument against them gets destroyed

[Stadt]

There's a video online of someone at Hanover 96 who says in ten years they have never replaced a single seat or bar. Compare that to Man Utd who have to replace 700 seats every game!

What?! 700 I could understand maybe 10 or so but 700 Christ

[filbertway]

I just had a thought, when the seats are out for europeans games, do they move the rails, or will people just have to stare at a rail all game if they are sitting?

[Freesolo]

I just had a thought, when the seats are out for europeans games, do they move the rails, or will people just have to stare at a rail all game if they are sitting?

 

No they just stand anyway.... Honestly i don't know but thats a good question because that bar looks right on eye level for your average male